[335] 7) Carpaccio: EXORCISM OF A DEMON--Yes, now, this sounds religious--[laughter]-- I didn't choose it for that purpose, but it was one of the few pictures available about the behavior of Renaissance^a society. This is a very secular^b society, and the subject matter doesn't make it religious at all. So we can take it actually as a picture which has not only a naturalistic style, but also a secular subject matter. Now look at it, and I go on and will then speak about another one in the same realm. 8) Ostade^c: TAVERN--This is one of these very not only naturalistic but also realistic pictures, by one of the great Dutch naturalists. While the first also has most of the Italian Renaissance painters in the idealistic^d shadow or idealistic color, let us say, of naturalism^e, this is more in the realistic form. Both are naturalism, the one more idealistic (idealizing beauty), this more realistic, making a picture out of something which in itself is ugly.

9) Jan Steen^f: LOOSE LIVING--About Steen, I must tell you a personal story. When I first was asked to give a lecture on religion and art in the National Gallery in Washington, I walked through the Gallery there, which is one of the first galleries of the world--"first" in the value sense-- and thought, "Now, what will I see?" I simply let myself go--not my mind, but my foot, was driving, and I was driven to a familiar picture like this--it itself was not available--but they are all very similar. And I asked myself. "Now what about the religious character of such a picture? It is on the extreme side of the non-religious, in SOME way." And then I was ashamed of myself,