[102] Now this is a very astonishing situation and demands the serious consideration of both scientists (in the large sense of the word) and theologians. The situation today is a little different. It is not a matter of conflict any more--or only in a very hidden and potential way. It is a cautious besides-each-other. But this is not a very good state of things either, because it is not cleared up scientifically: the essential relation of these two realms is still clouded by the past, by emotions and by confusions. Therefore what we have to do in a lecture like this is to try to dissipate both the emotional clouds and the theoretical confusions with respect to the relation of religion and science. In order to do this, let's first look at the causes which produced this state of things, which produced these emotions and confusions. If we look at the pre-scientific stages of the development of mankind, then we can distinguish within them a pre-mythological and a mythological state. But for our purposes, they are not much different. In both of them, the holy^a and the secular^b are on one and the same place. They are not separated from each other--the one in a supernatural^c realm and the other in a natural realm--but the world as encountered is encountered both as secular and as sacred. The events happening in time and space are events of this world and, at the same time, events in which the divine manifests itself. EVERYthing is both supernatural and natural, and therefore nothing is ONLY supernatural and nothing is ONLY natural. The divine is present, as hidden power in the pre-mythological state, in cultures like that in which the mana-principle^d is predominant. Or it is present in terms of divine figures in the mythological stage, divine figures which have some transcendence but which, at the same time, are present actively in almost everything which happens in time and space. A man like the first so-called philosopher, Thales of Miletus, says, "The world is full of gods." Now that's the Greek feeling: there are gods everywhere, in every tree, in every river, in every cloud, in every lightning, and even in every technical instrument they can be present. Those of you who know the Homeric poems will remember how the gods continually act with respect to every special hero, not only the greatest ones but also the smaller ones; how they fight with each other--namely the gods and goddesses--about these people;